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Symmetra must be in a rough spot to not only have her character reworked once, but twice.
[BLIZZARD] Jeff Kaplan posted on 02/12/2018 08:26 PM:
We disagree that Mei needs a major rework. We are trying some improvements to her but they are not major.
Symmetra will require more work to get into a better place and therefore take longer to address.
Beep boop. No hacks required.
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Oh yay, and they said Mercy wouldn't take too long... This looks promising
I think one of Symmetra's main problems is very similar to the "problems" we've seen with Mercy 1.0 and Sombra: too much of their value lies in their ults. As we saw with both of them, they were changed and while it took quite some time for Mercy's new ult to be brought in line, it's not her main draw anymore: she's highly mobile and can now b-hop with GA, has great utility with Res, and the most consistent single-target healing in the game. The devs clearly did not like the "hide and Res" playstyle that a lot of the playerbase engaged in.
And while the Sombra changes are still waiting to go in full effect on the PTR, the intention there is clearly to get rid of another playstyle I'd wager the devs aren't a fan of: the "have your whole team take damage a few times and farm EMP in 30 seconds" style. Yet, as we've seen in OWL on Horizon, that's all she's really been used for. It puts too much value in EMP and makes her highly map/point-dependent. The changes should address this and make Sombra more of an offense character who's usable in more situations and not just an EMP-bot.
So, I think Symmetra could use something along the lines of what Sombra is getting: a "soft rework." Shift some of the value out of her ults and give her more value in her base kit. Maybe adjust her gun a bit to make it both less frustrating at low ranks and more useful at high ranks (a tall order, I realize). Do this with her primary fire, and you could make her alt fire move faster the lower the charge. Make her teleporter and shield gen weaker (reduce the number of charges on tele and maybe the amount of shields, perhaps?) so that you can buff her sentry turrets and photon barrier--again, more value in her base kit.
So many people just use the turrets to build ult, but they're sentry turrets, right? So make enemies who trigger them temporarily visible to allies through walls. And if her ults are weaker, Symm won't need to be so worried about farming them ASAP if she can support her team more naturally. Plus, flankers may be less inclined to go after them: "Oh, they only have 3 charges on tele anyway, we can kill them all and win the fight." As for buffing photon barrier, maybe have it grant temporary shields to allies it passes near? Or if that's too much, perhaps change the shape of it a bit?
Just some ideas. The overall goal of Symm's changes should be shifting value out of her ult and into her base kit, though, imo. Her ults are simply too easy to destroy for them to have as much value as they do.
The problem with Symmetra is pretty basic when you get right down to it. She has no power spike.
The way heroes do well at high-tier play is by having abilities that can be milked for maximum utility. Combine a tracer bomb with a Halt, for example, and you can kill four people with it instead of one or two. Line up three tanks with a Moira, and you can triple your healing output. With additional skill, players can achieve more with their given abilities. Almost every hero has some sort of combo they can put out that gives them massive power if properly utilized.
Symmetra has no such power spike. At best, she can achieve 1/3rd a Soldier's DPS, and that's after charging her weapon for two whole seconds, an eternity at higher levels of gameplay.
The worst offender is her ultimate. For all intents and purposes, Shield Generator provides the opposite of this skill-benefit at higher-skill gameplay; the better the players, the weaker a shield generator becomes, because the players know exactly where the shield generator is going to be located, and exactly how to destroy it with the minimum of effort.
And from the other side, Shield generator's only real synergy is with Torbjorn armor packs, and it is - by a huge margin - the most passive ultimate in the game. Its' very design prohibits using it in any manner requiring any sort of higher-skilled play.
That alone wouldn't be a huge problem if they hadn't nerfed the rest of her character when they added shield generator by removing her basic passive shields. But they did, and now virtually the entirety of Sym's support capabilities are inextricably tied to her ultimate, which much like Moira's damage beam, only grows comparatively weaker at higher levels of play.
And yes, I know that the teleporter was almost useless for point B defense. But that could have been resolved in a way that didn't create the most passive and low-skill ultimate in the game.
Seeing ‘soon’ takes so long, think about what ‘long’ means in dev talk.
I think the issue with sym is that she just doesn't feel like she's contributing much without her ultimates. And her ultimates are often short-lived.
Her turrets are easily counterable since they're only 1 hp and any decent team will clear them out once they find the killroom. Her barrier can block some damage, but it doesnt provide a whole lot of value for the team. She's good against flankers at close range, but why pick sym when you could have moira. Sym can zone somewhat with her secondary fire, but not as effectively as other heroes.
Trying for her ult often feels like a risky proposition when you could take someone else and they'd immediately add value. I suggest they get rid of the barrier ability and add something that adds more value to the team immediately so they can feel her presence and you dont have to wait for her ults to get value.
I don't know what you could do for sym that makes her better, makes people not tilt when she is picked, and also isn't stupidly OP. Moira has lock on, but it doesn't follow you around corners, and the break range isn't longer than the lock off range. Both of which are true for Sym.
If they want to make her 'good' they are probably going to have to give her an ability that requires aim.
Turrets lock on to enemies or teammates. They damage or heal. So for attack, you could have Sym set up a "heal room" somewhere, or on Defense, the turrets have utility besides catching attackers off guard for a bit of initial damage. They can still only target the first thing in their range, and they still die super easy.
Plus, can't you imagine Sym saying something along the lines of "This will correct your flaws"
patiently waits for the hate to transfer to Moira
Can we put her ult on walls and ceilings please? Reduce cool down of the barrier? Make setting up turrets faster? That should help a lot.
Sym desperately needs a buff, rework, quality of life changes, you name it, she needs it.
- Have a shield generator statistic. It's insane that after one year, the game doesn't track how much the shields blocked similar to Rein.
- Teammates seeing Sym's constructs and getting alerted when turrets die. Again this is a no brainer.
- Make her viable on attack. Literally every other hero is viable in some shape or form on attack/hybrid maps.
- Make her less counterable. Currently any barely competent player can shut her or her kit completely with minimal effort. 80% of the OW roster hard counters her (Pharah, Reaper, Ana, Mei, all the tanks, Tracer, Sombra, Junkrat, Bastion) with some counters so hard that it's impossible to win 1vs1 no matter the skill.
- Fix her SR gains.
- She is not just niche, she is basically barely usable at present moment, literally the only hero in OWL with 0% pickrate.
- The counter argument that she is OP in low elo is ridiculous at this point. You basically have to have a salad for a brain and absolutely zero interest in progressing/getting better in order not to be able to beat her or unable to learn how to counter her.
Sym needs a serious thought and I'm glad that at least Jeff is acknowledging that fact as opposed to the minor changes that they said earlier.
Here's an idea, instead of a moving shield, make her able to hold the shield at a fixed distance wherever she's looking at for a brief amount of time.
I feel that Overwatch is not a traditional FPS game. It has mechanics including these lock on and no aim required mechanics that makes it more refreshing, and also focuses more on placement and teamwork than just pure individual skills. Like symmetra for example, once she’s in a bad position she is dead, she has no escape mobility, her turrets and ultimates are easily countered by a good team, and she is barely picked.
Rather than an FPS, overwatch really works more like a first person view of a game like Dota or League of Legends, where there is less of a focus of pure aiming and shooting (although it helps) and focuses more on teamwork and positioning and awareness. People keep saying that characters like Sym and Mercy and Junkrat takes no skill, yet the people on top rankings are rarely them, but filled with tracers and genjis, people make the excuse that it’s because these characters are “not fun”, but probably in all actuality it’s because people have difficulty playing them rather than the traditional aim and shoot heroes. I think OWL illustrates that very well in that players who were considered very good support players had trouble adjusting to Mercy, they simply couldn’t play her well to be impactful, and there were a clear difference between good Mercy and a bad one. Other people say that they hate Mercy and Sym or Junkrat because people who play them can’t transfer their skills to the other type, but so what, if they are good in these characters they should get the same praise anyway, just like players who play tracer/genji will have difficulty playing Sym or Mercy also, different players are good at different characters, all of them should be respected.
It would be a sad day when every single hero in overwatch gets turned into an aim/shoot hero
I think from a game balance perspective Symm is okay and healthy for the game right now. She has a few points where she is incredibly powerful, and completely useless at other times. And that's okay I think. Not every hero needs to be picked all the time.
The issue seems to be people picking her on offense and the negativity that occurs within a team when something like that happens.
Blizzard can't just buff her a bunch. They can't just ban every player who picks Symmetra on offense.
It's a really complex problem.
Maybe im stupid but what if they changed her turrets and gave them more health and less damage so that they focus more on slowing down enemies in a choke rather than just dealing damage.
Maybe let her fire the turrets at walls from range. Imagine being able to shoot these at the point on offence.
Even if they have to increase cool down to even it out.
I'd like to play symmetra but my team just seems to psychologically fall apart when I play her and I usually just get reported until my account gets suspended. It's sad.
Move Symmetra to the defenders section
This "niche" argument is just an excuse for heroes that they have utterly failed at creating, and balancing.
I keep hoping Symmetra will enjoy her day in the sun some day.
Hopefully they can get this rework out sometime in the first half of the year. It's been over 400 days since Sym got her last rework.
Symm will almost never be used in pro play because her ult is essentially useless. Teleporter is one of the best ults in the game, but gets wrecked by active Tracer/Genji/Sombra combinations (pick any 2 of the 3). When you're playing at the highest level, that teleporter has to be SO FAR back from the point to hopefully go unnoticed.
I feel like Sym was supposed to be what Moira is and vice-versa.
I'm sure this is said a lot, but Symmetra doesn't feel like a support to me. She shares so much in common with defense heroes and almost nothing with support heroes. She fits more in the tank category in terms of using a shield to help for herself or teammates. She can give people shields which can be compared to Torb. Her teleporter helps allies defend a point. She can defend a choke. If I knew nothing about Overwatch and you asked me if she's an offense, defense, tank, or support, I would say defense.
Just give Symetra the ability to replace health with barrier health like 75% of your health turns into barrier and being near her turrets regenerates you, and get rid of her barrier ult just bring back the ability but make it stronger, obviously she gonna be hard countered by Sombra but that is fine, the rest of her kit might need way more work to, just make her into a crappy off healer.
i hope they make it to where she gets a new ult that lets her reestablish 5 teammates who together. we can call it rees, short for reestablish (:
I think the biggest issue with sym is that there is far too much focus on dps and so little on support. She's a support character, but she makes a lot more sense as a defense character because her kit focuses on it. Nothing about her screams support, but most of it screams defense. Her shield generator is just another torb armor pack, mini turrets are just annoying flank protectors or help with chokes, and the projectable shield really doesn't do much except push or protect an ally.
We should focus on one of two things: either make her a true defense character and refocus her a bit there, or change her kit to be useful for support. Instead of casting damage, how about she casts a sustained shield around an ally? Give it similar functionality to reins shield. Maybe make turrets moderately boost ally damage near by. Or scrap the turrets and allow her to deploy little med kits for allies only. Just focusing her around shield and damage boosting or healing could really change comps around and make shield tanks less of a must pick every round.
While I hope they expand Sym's niche, I don't want a total redesign. There's a lot of misconceptions about Sym's kit, and why someone might want to play her on attack or other suboptimal places. I often joke she's both a tank and a stealth character, but there's some truth to that. She's a character who thrives by understanding where the enemy's attention is focused and manipulating that attention.
Sometimes she wants to go unnoticed. Waiting for an opportunity to flank enemy squishies. Using a backdoor teleporter to catch the enemy team with their pants down. Being underestimated until she melts the Winston/D.Va who dived your healers.
Sometimes she wants to be the enemy's top priority. Having the enemy's attention divided between capping the point, and fruitlessly diving her obvious shield gen. Forcing everyone to help out the Zen who's being spawn trapped over and over. Baiting people into her hell corridor.
Sym can feel like a carry character in low rank, as her kit naturally exploits poor game sense and coordination. Then, as you rank up, she becomes more dependent on her team to orchestrate her favorable scenarios. Compared to someone like Tracer who is basically self-sufficient, she can feel like a selfish pick. It's not that her potential is extremely low, but that there are so few options to enable her that it's not worth the effort. If you can imagine how Pharah would play without Mercy or Zen to heal from afar, and how selfish she would seem, I would say Sym is in that kind of place.
Anyways my thoughts are all over the place, but I hope they look at how Sym plays outside of chokepoints. The way she plays when defending a chokepoint is one-dimensional and passive, but it doesn't necessarily follow that her entire character is as well. Her kit has a lot of expressive potential, but it's difficult to take advantage of. So people default to a very boring way of playing her. People playing her on attack are playing suboptimally, but that doesn't mean they're playing her the wrong way.
How to fix symmetra
Leftclick Problem: only viable at super close range and needs a long charge up to deal 120 dps (when your already winning, your winning even more) Solution: Make sym deal like 75-90 dps at close range but doubling her range. Beam has damage fall off and does like 30-50 dps (like moira) at like 20 yards so she actually could contribute to fights.
Rightclick Problem: long charge up, slow travel time, hits nobody most of the time. Solution: Orb itself does no damage but it has a turret like beam inside that does not slow but deals damage. Maybe charging 1 second = 1 turret beam, up to 3 seconds -> 3 turret beams inside the orb. So sym rightclick would actually deal damage and feel rewarding. It would be more similar to moiras damage orb, so sym would actually get value out of her range ability.
Shield Problem: Travels to fast to actually absorb something, can only be used to avoid hooks or flashbangs if timed right. Solution: if it is intended that way then leave the ability as is. Compare the shield to Orisa shield; they have similar cooldown and similar health but orisa absorbs like 30 000 damage in a match and symmetra like 2000. Sym is obviously not a tank so I guess the ability is fine.
Turret Problem: you need to run into a wall and jump up to place a turret strategically. I cant tell you how many times I died because of widow or mccree or hogs hook when I placed a turret and slowed myself. You cannot replace turrets in a fight or at a choke when the enemy is near. Solution: When you click your hotkey for the turret you can “shoot” them (like mei rightclick) with your leftclick. If it hits a wall they attach there. You don’t get slowed while doing so. This actually would make symmetra viable on offense and on KOTH in my opinion. You could throw turrets up high to even contest pharahs air space or you could shoot turrets behind enemies in a team fight to distract them. Also it would allow to replace turrets between teamfight without the risk of randomly dying because of the self slow.
Ultimate: Problem: Mercy was changed vom 1.0 because she would hide in teamfights and come in to rezz everyone. What sym is doing right now is she is hiding with 100% ult waiting for her team to loose the 5v6 and then place a TP so the group has a chance to get back to the point and avoid capping. Solution: Symmetra can press Q at any time and create a teleporter/generator platform which is not visable for the enemy team. When sym reaches 100% she can press Q again and choose TP or Gen like normal. Left clicking would activate your platform. This would allow symmetra to be involved in teamfights and even activate teleporter when dead or in spawn. Another problem is that your team cannot see your ultimate when placed. Make the TP visable for your team would allow teammates to see the TP before they die so they know where they appear after using a TP charge. Also the TP is a huge object emitting light and sound and gets announced to the enemy team after placing it. So essentialy there is no skill involved in knowing when the enemy sym places her ult. Make the TP small, emit no light and sound so it actually would require some skill on the enemy side to know when its up and make it harder to find it. Maybe give it 3 turret automatically attached to it so it has some potential to defend itself. Currently genji or tracer can kill a TP easily even when it is placed in a small room defended by 6 turrets and they know exactly when you placed it. I think regarding balance 6 charges and 75 shield is optimal.
Another thing is that symmetra is the hero with the most counters to her making her ineffective in almost every teamcomposition the enemy chooses. When you see a pharah or a Winston it is not like your at a slight disadvantage, no, you are just dead and cant do anything. Im not saying that every hero needs to be able to snipe pharah out of the sky and having a slight rock-paper-scissors mechanic in play is healthly. But having 80% of the heros currently hard counter symmetra makes me sad.
I don’t request or demand any change that I proposed but I think changing her rightclick to be more effective and hit enemies more reliable or changing her ult the way I described it would make it more fun to play her.
It is sad that currently a hero exists in the game that when you pick it you get accused of throwing, you get reported and when you lose while a symmetra is on your team the whole team know whom to blame.
TL,DR: Leftclick more range with damage fall off. Rightclick has turret beams attacked to it. Turrets can be “thrown” to walls from a distance. Ultimate can be placed in advance and activated from a distance.
I think Sym is in the same place as Torb, they are amazing in low tiers where players have no aim to kill them but in high tiers they are useless because they are so easy to kill and high skill doesn't help them get kills.
They both require a rework to make them good in all tiers of play.
Torb relies almost entirely on his turret to get kills. They should change him to throw several small turrets that build themselves and slowly repair themselves and this would allow him to travel more and track down kills, maybe boost his shotgun fire to do more damage.
Sym I think needs a secondary ability like to be able to make a doorway through walls in certain spots on the map to help her teammates go where the other team is not expecting. Also I think her beam need to be longer but also should break off earlier when going through walls just like Moira's attack. Then she is more effective at getting kills but you an actually get away from her by going around a corner etc....maybe even adjusting her shield to just stay in front of her instead of going off in to the distance.
Both Sym and Torb are being looked at, I wonder if they are finally looking at the auto aim buildings. Always think auto aim is extremely difficult to balance; it's frustrating for lower levels in which these buildings aim wayyy better than the human, and it's useless for higher levels in which stationary things are dead meat. So you either say f the people in low ranks or f the people in high ranks.
The most iconic POTG in overwatch is Torb's corpse slowly roll off a ledge while his turret kills half a team... I don't think that's the engaging play style that Blizzard envisioned.
One way to simply give Symmetra more versatility would be to use the same mechanic as moira's orbs for her turret: two choices of turret, an attack turret, and a support/healing turret. And no slowing down while you put them. You could balance that by decreasing the length of her beam.
Remove her beam and replace it with a better version of her secondary fire--faster projectile speed to compensate for not being able to charge it.
EDIT: or maybe she charges it, and that's how it goes through barriers and/or does that big ball damage.
If they're not going to do a talon shaman healer, maybe give her an additional turret/totem for her secondary fire.
How about they give her a heal? Since ya know...she's in the support category.
Symmetra should be able to use her shield as a parasail. You hold down the shield button and it zips you behind it until you release the button.
TIL that directing the famous "Truffle Shuffle" scene was so uncomfortable that "The Goonies'" director Richard Donner bought the actor who plays Chunk a gym membership and took a personal interest in his fitness. Jeff Cohen went on to be captain of his high school football and wrestling teams.
TIL Jeff Bezos funded a team that searched the Atlantic Ocean for discarded NASA rockets. By 2013, the team salvaged two rockets. After careful inspection, the team realized they found part of the rockets used to carry Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, and Michael Collins to the moon on Apollo 11.